Today I have learned that a fellow female grad student has decided to quit grad school. Out of 10 women that I have gotten to know fairly well in my Ph.D. program, she is the 5th one to quit (yep, that is 50%); each of those 5 have spent 1-5 years in the program prior to making the decision. Out of the remaining 5, 1 has graduated, 2 should graduate soon, 1 is too early to tell, and 1 switched programs after encoutering some hostility in the current one. So, the success rate for women* may be 30-50% overall.
Somehow I don't recall seeing that on the brochures.
*Although I know dozens of male students in my Ph.D. program, I only know of 1 (!) that left without a degree.
The perverse incentives of academia
6 years ago
16 comments:
That is sad. I'm always horrified when I hear these stories. There has to be something that can be done to make this PhD process better.
That is sad. I think it is at least in part because women tend to let themselves get discouraged and no one is there to talk them out of it.
This may sound like a non-sequitur, but once I was discussing euthanasia with my sister (the ethicist). She said one of the best arguments against euthanasia is that it is disproportionately chosen by women, indicating some sort of cultural conditioning. Women don't want to be "a bother" or make others take care of them, or feel less worthy of living, perhaps.
In any case, it seems similar to trudging through or dropping out of a graduate program, particularly if it's the last reason.
Amanda - isolation has a lot to do with it. When a large portion of those around you think you don't belong, and the small handful of those like you is slowly but surely vanishing, it can make it tougher to stick through what is already a difficult experience.
Rebecca - underconfidence has played a role in most of the cases I listed. Which is too bad - my friend has no less capacity for success than the overconfident guys she worked with (but I think that has only widened the gap in her mind).
Hey there-
Thanks for writing. I enjoyed the post, however serious or saddening. I'm writing about the trials and triumphs of student life over on my blog (http://phdetails.wordpress.com).
As a History of Science Ph.D in a tight-knit grad program, I don't see many of my peers succumbing to isolation or peer-induced pressure. But I do see many struggling with meeting their mentor's expectations. It's tough to be who they want you to be, and it certainly saps the confidence.
All the best!
Andrew Stuhl
During my graduate work I know of two people who quit. One female, one male. However I hear that a lot of current students, mostly female because that is who most of the students are, have decided to stop with a masters degree and switch schools or do something else.
Wow. That really sucks. Are people (especially PIs) talking about it, trying to figure out why, trying to DO something about it? Because those are shocking statistics.
That is sad. For me, all the females graduated, but they have started dropping out of science after. Took longer, but same result.
@ndrew - welcome! Living up to the mentor's expectations (expressed by the mentor or assumed by the student) does tend to be an anxiety for many students. However, I don't think it was the main reason behind this student's decision.
Jennie - I realize that there is certain percentage of people that don't make it in grad school. What concerns me is that the women in my program (which is 10% female to start) are much, much more likely to be the ones to not make it.
Cath - I do not know if the general population of the PIs is concerned, but I do see the female PIs try to make an effort to warn the female students of the main problems and ways to try to deal with them. As a field, I am afraid we are still a long way from solution(s).
Tina - I see this problem on all levels, too: undergrad, grad school, post grad school, tenure track. Some of the reasons (constantly having to prove you belong, dealing with people that think you don't, trying to fit into the male culture that is not willing to budge) remain the same throughout, while others (like becoming a parent in a culture that is not very inclusive of mothers) become more problematic as one gets older.
I have a similar story- Of the 9 women that started in my year, 5 dropped out along the way. The other 3 are still moving towards graduating within a year or two. Across all my years of grad school I can only recall 3 men dropping out ever.
10% seems really low to start with! Are women represented any better at the faculty level?
Albatross - I am not finding the nationwide stats right now, but my department has recently hired a few new female faculty, bring the percentage up to 15% (1/3 of them not tenured).
Hi ScienceGirl! You dropped by my blog the other day and I am returning the favor and coming to check you out! I like what I'm reading so far :).
As for this post, that is very sad, particularly if it is a confidence issue, where are the brazen, ballsy ladies, and if they're not around, how can we make them brazen and ballsy? Sigh....in my sub-area, out of the 0 girls who started with me, and the 2 girls who came in during the last N>5 years, 1 quit and 1 moved to another sub-area. How's that for numbers? Depressing.
> 10% seems really low to start with!
It is, but there are a number of fields that are heavily gender-skewed like that. Pure math (as opposed to math-ed, which is more balanced) is another one with mostly male students. Library science and elementary education are strongly skewed in the opposite direction (although, I don't know whether men who do choose to go into those fields have any special trouble).
My question is, are these women quitting because they discover that the science isn't really isn't what they want to do with their lives after all (e.g., it isn't as fulfilling as they expected), or are they quitting because of social pressures exerted by other students or the faculty? To me, those are categorically different types of scenarios.
> She said one of the best
> arguments against
> euthanasia is that it
> is disproportionately
> chosen by women
I know this is off-topic, but I just can't let this pass. This isn't in any way a valid argument against euthanasia. Either euthanasia is a valid choice for someone to make, or it's not. If it is a valid and acceptable choice, then if more women choose it that's valid and acceptable. If it's not okay for more women to happen to make that choice, then it's because euthanasia isn't an ethically acceptable choice. You can't have it both ways.
PhizzleDizzle - welcome! I was glad when I found you through Dr.Isis! Now I will be forever trying to guess your sub-area (we are in the same discipline, but I am guessing our sub-areas are not related). As far as the "how can we make them brazen and ballsy?" goes, I think many of the girls struggle with having to become someone they are not in order to survive.
Jonadab - out of the girls that quit the program, none have actually left science but rather got B.S./M.S. level jobs. One of the girls that quit a few years ago that I keep in touch with says she still misses the thrill of research. So why the exodus? I think both social pressures and the prospects of unrealistic 100-hour/week jobs afterward play a role.
I will stay out of the euthanasia discussion.
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